Amazon pulls out of NYC

Discussion in 'The Slant Political Board' started by nick77, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    Do you have any idea just how wild and willfully ignorant you are making yourself to be? You are absolutely uneducated on basic economic principles.

    You keep calling us Socialists and yet you fail to understand its basic core principles.

    Under Socialism, money, interest, profits, large corporations, stocks, etc do not even exist. Only in a capitalist economic system they do.

    Democratic Socialism is a system that participates in and enjoys the benefits of the above; it just wants to implement safeguards to protect the working class, to stop greed, or you know, to protect the established communities of Long Island City from being priced out of their homes, forced to pack it up because a large corporation that profits double-digit billions annually requires and remands billions in local taxpayer handouts.

    Scandinavia is not Socialist. They give out mostly free healthcare but they does not make those countries Socialist. They just give out social services and make them available to everyone.

    Venezuala isn't even Socialist. Their economy is entirely capitalism. It operates under almost entirely private businesses with a 'free' market. It's downfall outside of the US States imposing sanctions on it, is the government does interfere and set price controls but it is Capitalism. They just happened to nationalize the oil industry and steal a bunch of land from people and companies.

    I think you need to educate yourself before you start attaching labels to people. And quite honestly, you have nothing to contribute.

    You either have no answer to communities being displaced and priced out of their homes, the sweeping gentrification, or you are aware but are too chicken shit to say 'tough luck', either way you have no valid response or rebuttal that provides anything of value to this discussion.
     
  2. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    Venezuela isn't socialist? They merely took over the means of production? And I'm the ignorant one?

    I've spent time in Finland, Russia, China, and all over Europe. I get it. I mean, I really get it. Why do you think the best new companies in the world are largely founded and grown in America? Why do you think half of the tech unicorns are founded by immigrants to America? Why weren't the founded in Helsinki?

    How can you be so completely clueless about the benefits of capitalism? No doubt your standard of living has benefited from it. There is no better place in the world then America to improve your lot in life, because of capitalism. Have you every thought about class mobility? Even your precious AOC has benefited from the class mobility that is possible in America, that isn't possible in other countries that you love so much, yet controlled by the government.

    People aren't perfect. But capitalism is so superior to socialism as a framework for an economy that it's hard to believe anyone would ever believe otherwise.
     
  3. !hawk!

    !hawk! All-Conference
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    It is completely untrue that the US has better social mobility than almost any country in Western and Northern Europe.

    Jt, read this book
     
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  4. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    Venezuela calls itself a socialist republic and it has nationalized its oil industry and stolen land from its agriculture industry but it's economy is almost entirely capitalist: it has private land owners, corporations down to small businesses generate profits and compete for market share.

    It has personal income tax (34% flat iirc, 3 brackets, 34% being the highest - pretty low rate for a capitalist country), sales tax, corporate tax rates, a form of social security and with it, you got it, taxes to support it.

    A true Socialist country would not have the above. One could argue the reason that VZ is failing is because of its Capitalist ways. Of course that would be ignorant to do so same as it would be ignorant to say it's because of 'Socialism' (and many do the latter).

    In reality you have an authoritarian, despotic dictatorship rife with corruption that is attempting their own 'free market' but manipulating many things directly to try to rig and re-rig the self imposed shortcomings.

    I'm not saying Capitalism itself is inherently bad, neither is AOC. We just want safeguards in place. Capitalism left unchecked is far far worse than unchecked, corrupt Communism by miles, but AOC and Bernie Sanders are Democratic Socialists. To compare that to Socialists would be like comparing playing baseball to baking a cake.
     
    164 nick77, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  5. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    This Laffer Curve nonsense will truly never die.

    There is a point at which tax rates inhibit economic activity.

    70% marginal tax rates on extremely high incomes will not inhibit people’s desire to become rich.
     
  6. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    It should also be pointed out that Venezuela isn’t collapsing because it is socialist, it is collapsing because it:

    A. Elected a charismatic leader with fascist tendencies and a cult of personality, who then died and left a far less popular and capable strongman in charge;

    B. Based most of its government revenue on its oil sales, which are extremely volatile and susceptible to the international market;

    C. Established a government and business environment that is extremely corrupt, leading to disastrous mismanagement across vital societal sectors.
     
  7. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    I don’t mean this to be rude, but the more you write, the more you reveal how little you know what you’re talking about when it comes to economic, sociological and governmental systems. You presume ignorance by others while revealing your own through half-baked, oversimplistic and extremely tired talking points.

    Capitalism is good for very many things, particularly wealth creation and innovation. It also inevitably and quickly leads to extreme injustice and abuse if not tightly controlled and regulated.

    Like people, those attempts at control and regulation can be very flawed as well. But simply painting any and all attempts to rein in the inhuman and destabilizing excesses of capitalism as “socialism,” then decrying that overly broad umbrella term as “Bad!” misses so much important nuance and detail that it makes further discussion virtually worthless. You are a caricature of an Ayn Rand disciple.

    You seem to value business development and wealth creation above all else. That is your perogative. But don’t pretend that you support it because it lifts all boats. That scam is decades past its due date, and attempting to pull it again reveals you as either a poor scam artist yourself or a fool that doesn’t even realize he’s selling snake oil.
     
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  8. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    WSJ is reporting Amazon is still planning on adding more employees to LIC. It remains to be seen if these are high-income tech workers that will contribute to gentrification and community displacement or if these are jobs that the average existing resident could be qualified for (article is paywalled)
     
  9. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    If you scroll back up you'd read where I wrote that I'm not anti-government. You're implying that I'm advocating an anti-government stance. Not true at all.

    I'm also for reasonable regulation. But what you are advocating for (and thru AOC and Bernie as your proxy) is so outrageous that it's beyond reasonable.

    Don't assume a lack of time to write equates to lack of deep understanding. And certainly don't mistake a disagreement with a lack of understanding.

    Lastly, capitalism has done more for the poor than socialism could ever do.
     
  10. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    It's also done more to the poor. That's the balance, and why I asked you to take one issue from AOC you consider to be immoral and wrong and explain why you think that.
     
  11. AZ j-hawk

    AZ j-hawk All-American
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    Why is corporate welfare okay but social welfare not?
     
  12. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    A person with a deep understanding generally doesn’t pose questions like, “If you like socialism, you must hate capitalism?” Nor do they talk about capitalism the way Christians talk about Jesus.

    The “free markets” libertarian song and dance is so boring at this point. Sure, you guys are for “reasonable” regulation ... which never seems to include any new regulations that are ever proposed if it might in any way lower profits. You guys are all for government ... so long as its only purpose is to protect and enhance property rights and profits.
     
  13. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    You realize a government should protect property rights, just like they should protect and enforce contracts between willing parties. That's sort of a core function...unless you're opposed to that too.

    What do you do for a living Floyd? I'm just curious. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from and see these discussion through your eyes. Sincerely.
     
  14. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    Where did i say I was against social programs? Eat a snickers.
     
  15. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    Sincerely, my profession has nothing to do with the validity of my views and the only reason you want to know it is so you can find a way to use it to dismiss my arguments without actually engaging them. This isn’t my first discussion with a libertarian.
     
  16. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
    Actually, having read Plato, I was curious the veil thru which you see the world so I could better understand your perspective.

    It was just a curiosity. No harm meant. No intent to try to belittle. That’s not my deal.

    I only belittle your arguments and ideology. Never you personally.
     
  17. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    I understand, I just don’t think my profession is relevant to my opinions and stances regarding the merits and problems of capitalism and socialism.
     
  18. cornstalk

    cornstalk Freshman
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    I saw on news tonight GOV. Cuomo crying about taxing the rich and there leaving N.Y., like it wasn,t good idea, so who is right the socialist on here or the Gov. writing the checks.
     
  19. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    Haha, what is this?
     
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  20. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    That’s fair. Wasn’t trying to get personal. Rock Chalk!
     
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  21. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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  22. !hawk!

    !hawk! All-Conference
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    NYC has a lot more than that they can work with.
     
  23. knaup1

    knaup1 Senior
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    Yeah, the 25K new jobs and tax windfall for NY would have just been terrible. Stupid Democrats are really good at screwing up their own states.
     
  24. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    Sure, New Yorkers should take more cues on how to cultivate a thriving economy from booming Republican-run states like Kansas or Alabama.
     
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  25. !hawk!

    !hawk! All-Conference
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    lol
     
  26. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    Another common fallacy, a lot of people didn't actually read the deal and keep spouting incorrect info.

    $500M was capital grants. She maintained that from the get go.

    Let's just shut this down right now because all over the thread the late-stage capitalists are using incorrect information to say she's complaining about $3B that isnt there.

    I will say once more:

    $500MM in that deal was for capital grants. $2.5B was then for tax breaks (Which btw, a dollar is still a dollar).

    She has maintained from the get go that it is very fair to invest that capital - that $500MM - into the existing community for public use and give the working people in that community a tax break instead of a juggernaught that earned $11B in pure profit last year and already paid $0 in taxes on it.
     
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  27. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    I'll bite. How is a tax incentive the same as a dollar you could go spend now?

    And you are making a different case/point than AOC is making. I'm taking her at her word from the interview. She uses very precise language that demonstrates she either doesn't understand or does understand and is intentionally lying about the deal. I'm not sure which is worse.
     
  28. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    The case I made is a literal translation of a tweet from herself. She always maintained this, I can dig the tweet up later but I was summarizing her own case.

    What interview are you talking about? She has completely understood the deal from day 1. She has forgotten more about it then what you and I ever knew.

    You do realize this affects her district, right? The deal was announced Sep 2017 months before her primary.

    She had many many many months to read the deal, talk to the constituents of the Bronx and Queens in her district (I do know LIC isn't directly in hers but the deal still affects her district) and fully understand what is going on.

    Guess what side of this Crowley was on and also guess why he lost the primary?

    To say she doesn't understand the deal is just plain ignorance to the facts. You can cherry pick any statements and interpret them however you want but she had a very intimate understanding of what this deal was about.

    You can disagree with her and the overwhelming majority of the residents in her district if you want, that's your right.
     
  29. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    It's not. It's the same as another tax incentive for another entity or behavior.

    This is what she says:

    "We were subsidizing those jobs. The city was paying for those jobs. So frankly, if we were willing to give Amazon ... to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district ourselves if we wanted to. We could hire out more teachers, we can fix our subways, we can put a lot of people to work for that money if we wanted to."

    That is not "very precise" language. She was not giving a prepared speech. You're just asserting that so you can accuse of her ignorance or lying. She is clearly talking about the amount of tax incentives offered Amazon, which would be $3 billion that the city does not get in taxes and a $3 billion benefit to a corporation that made nearly four times that last year alone.

    And you ignored my question from earlier in the thread, which was noticed. I'll post it again:

    Whether you get a check for X or you don't have to pay X in taxes that you would otherwise have to pay, isn't the end result, at some point in the future, that you end up with X more dollars?
     
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  30. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    Scroll up to my post at 9:12pm. I shared the interview that Reuter’s shared. Her own words. She doesn’t understand. She’s dumb or a liar. Only two options.

    Now, please explain how a “dollar is still a dollar” in this scenario. Because I’d love to know how I can spend money I won’t ever receive as she’s says NY should in this instance.
     
  31. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    I'll refer to my post that she has more knowledge of this deal than you ever will because she lives there, she had months to prepare to debate it and to fight it.

    floyd and I have already explained this countless times.

    I like how you have no counterpoint when it was brought to your attention she was familiar with the difference between the capital grants and the tax breaks.

    You do know that in interviews and other mediums, for brevity people will just sum the entire amount instead of having to stop, and go word for word in excruciating detail in case a jt212717 comes a long and decides to disagree with it on a message board, right?

     
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  32. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    I'll make a correction because something I posted wasn't entirely correct. The plan to announce an HQ2 was in September 2017 not the announcement of LIC getting it. However, it was immediately made known by Cuomo and De Blasio that LIC was going to be proposed for it and local organizers, AOC were well on top of it especially as more details occurred.
     
  33. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    LOL. I truly admire the tortured lengths you guys will go to in support of dear leader!

    From Meet the Press interview with DeBlasio:

    In an interview with NBC’s Chuck Todd, the host said the tax breaks offered to Amazon weren’t “money you had over here. And it was going over there.”

    “Correct,” de Blasio replied. “And that $3 billion that would go back in tax incentives was only after we were getting the jobs and getting the revenue.”

    To clarify, Todd said, “There not $3 billion in money…”

    “There’s no money—right,” de Blasio said.

    I guess Chuck Todd and DeBlasio are part of the vast right wing conspiracy to make AOC look bad?
     
  34. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    You're using very precise language that demonstrates you either don't understand our responses or rebuttals or you do understand and are intentionally lying. But unlike you, I know which is worse.

    If you're not going to engage in good faith, then we're done.
     
  35. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    [eyeroll]

    How many times do we have to explain this to you.

    How many?

    DeBlasio was referencing the tax breaks or entirely forgot about the capital grant to pay for the construction site (then listed at $325M but we're seeing $500MM total number) which could have gone to education and public transit.

    Let me repeat this but you have a clear failure and lack of understanding on this:

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    There was a proposed amount of up to $500MM capital grant from the NY taxpayers to pay for the construction of Amazon's proposed site.

    In addition to this, for the very last time. C'mon man I shouldn't have to be explaining this to you. You refuse to answer Floyd's question.

    For the last time: Tax breaks still end up taking about from revenue. You literally are refusing to take revenue that could be used to help fix crumbling infrastructure or otherwise put towards the established community.
     
  36. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    Said no protest ever. A recent Business Insider poll had 4% support for the proposed deal btw.

    "What do we want?"
    "We want to subsidize a large corporation that earned $11B in profit and paid $0 in taxes with our hard earned tax dollars!"

    "And when do we want it?"
    "Now!"

    "What do we want?"
    "For the families of up to 25,000 imported workers to price us out of our neighborhoods!"

    "And when do we want it?"
    "Now!"

    "What do we want?"
    "A failing, over burdened transit system 3x as worse as it is already is for those of us that can afford to pay the increased rents!"

    "And when do we want it?"
    "Now!"

    "What do we want?"
    "Unaffordable dining, retail, and grocery for those of us fortunate to not have been displaced from our homes!"

    "And when do we want it?"
    "Now!"

    "What do we want?"
    "For our employers to be shutdown by competing big box stores and restuarant chains, forcing us to find work elsewhere in further away, traffic/commuter congested locations very difficult to get to!"

    "And when do we want it?"
    "Now!"
     
  37. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    I’m sharing HER exact words. And DeBlasio’s exact words.

    I’m sympathetic to the gentrification issue. AOC remains a buffoon.
     
  38. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    [eyeroll][eyeroll][eyeroll]

    This has been shot down a half dozen times now.
     
  39. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    Guys- Maybe you can help out.

    A business wants to attract more customers. It’s a competitive market. It’s going to offer a 10% discount on its product to spur sales. They project it will generate $10M in sales
    you don’t believe them to be their words? Is that your argument? That I shouldn’t believe my own eyes and ears?
     
  40. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
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    WTF are you talking about?

    Your responses indicate you are not even reading my posts, much less responding to them, and would rather engage in fantasy by beating on your own strawmen. I asked you to engage in good faith and you declined.
     

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