Amazon pulls out of NYC

Discussion in 'The Slant Political Board' started by nick77, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    A big win for the residents of Queens/Long Island, the NY State, and organized labor.

    It never was going to create 25,000 jobs. It was going to bring in 25,000 workers displacing 25,000 residents from the already tight housing/rental market and NY was going to pay 3 billion for the privilege.

    This was socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor and nothing else.
     
    snoodmonger and saad1000 like this.
  2. RMHawk

    RMHawk All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2001
    Messages:
    13,089
    Likes Received:
    4,251
    Location:
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Maybe the Corporate Welfare Queen Chief aka Amazon decided that NY was not promising enough handouts. Or maybe the pending fleece victims aka taxpayers ran them off.
     
  3. hill6

    hill6 Senior
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    5,441
    Likes Received:
    494
    It's amazing how many people will raise hell about the threat of socialism and giving money and food stamps to low income individuals, but readily support tax subsidies for businesses and will happily vote for higher taxes to fund a football stadium.
     
  4. floydmaster

    floydmaster All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    Messages:
    10,221
    Likes Received:
    6,387
    Not really any "maybes" about it. NYC -- aka, Gov. Cuomo and Mayor DeBlasio -- offered Amazon about $3 billion in tax subsidies to establish one of their HQs in the city, which Amazon accepted. Handing tax breaks to a company that generates billions in profits and revenue angered a lot of residents. Their local representatives raised a ruckus, and then Amazon tucked tail and ran, thus proving they weren't cut out for NYC in the first place.

    They'll still establish a presence here, because they want access to the city's booming tech and marketing talent. They'll just do it in a more traditional way, probably renting out several floors of a Midtown tower like everybody else.
     
  5. RMHawk

    RMHawk All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2001
    Messages:
    13,089
    Likes Received:
    4,251
    Location:
    Sioux Falls, SD
    I hate corporate welfare for billionaires and arrogant ultra $ corporations. I’m still a market guy and that crap is worse than ridiculous.
     
    AZ j-hawk likes this.
  6. AZ j-hawk

    AZ j-hawk All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,678
    Likes Received:
    1,826
    This is so bang on.
     
  7. cwobrien11

    cwobrien11 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    9,073
    Likes Received:
    8,111
    Someone explain the math on why having Amazon in NYC was a bad thing for NYC and NY?

    Back of the napkin math said that they were basically offering Amazon 3 bil in incentives for 30-50+ bil in city and state tax revenue over the life of the incentives.
     
  8. hill6

    hill6 Senior
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    5,441
    Likes Received:
    494
    I haven't dove into the math too much, but from what I've seen, NY gives up $3B in tax revenue. In return, in theory, they get $27B over 25 years in additional tax revenue.

    What the analysis didn't account for, however, is how 25K-40K new workers will put a strain on infrastructure, how it will affect public transport, how it will affect housing costs, how it will affect sewer, water, and everything you'd expect from adding tens of thousands of people to a densely populated place. On top of that, you're giving a tax break to one of the largest companies on Earth and there's no guarantee they will hit any of the rosy scenarios they promise. Ask Roberts and Brownback about their views of Boeing and what a major corporation's promise is worth.
     
  9. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    First of all, NY wasn't going to "pay" $3B. That's not at all how incentives work.

    Second, the market dynamism that that sort of eco devo commitment brings to a community is massive. New construction, new restaurants, new grocery stores, new dry cleaners, on and on.

    The economy is not a zero sum game, as you suggest it is. The population of NY has been growing for decades. is it your contention that the same amount of housing exists as say 10 years ago?

    Most of the people against the incentive package simply don't understand them at all. It's kind of funny or sad.
     
    KramerDishDawg84 likes this.
  10. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    I'm a market guy. Isn't this the market working? Amazon didn't coerce the City / State into putting foward an overwhelming incentive package. Cities across the country competed for the economic impact HQ2 could bring to their communities. Was the package the right size? Well, that's a different topic. But incentives work.
     
  11. RMHawk

    RMHawk All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2001
    Messages:
    13,089
    Likes Received:
    4,251
    Location:
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Incentives are not needed. Jerry Jones says hello.
     
  12. AZ j-hawk

    AZ j-hawk All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,678
    Likes Received:
    1,826
    This. Taxpayer subsidies should not be part of free markets. They’re not needed.
     
  13. !hawk!

    !hawk! All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,537
    Likes Received:
    551
    No American city should have to compete for corporate affection.
     
  14. !hawk!

    !hawk! All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,537
    Likes Received:
    551
    Just the first of many hard lines against a system that isn’t working for people, despite all your talk of economic dynamism, despite your ignorant condescension about how people couldn’t possibly grasp what an incentive means.
     
    floydmaster likes this.
  15. jayhawkart

    jayhawkart Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    5,887
    Likes Received:
    3,781
    Location:
    Lawrence
    People talk about 25,000 new people putting strain on the infrastructure yet they open their arms to millions of illegal immigrants.
     
    knaup1 likes this.
  16. cornstalk

    cornstalk Freshman
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    201
    I think Amazon is a little pain but they were saying on radio they were 150 thousand a year jobs, the mayor of New York City was upset with the legislature for losing the jobs
     
  17. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    NY essentially proposed a discount or offered a coupon to Amazon for their long term tax bill. Businesses do this all the time to attract customers. Do you rail against coupons or a sale as the store "subsidizing their customers"?

    And you may not like the comment about economic dynamism, but it doesn't make it less true. Injecting that many high-paying jobs into a market (any market) is going to spur a lot of economic activity. And that's good for everyone in that market.

    I didn't intend to be condescending. So if it came across that way, my apologies.
     
  18. !hawk!

    !hawk! All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,537
    Likes Received:
    551
    Apology accepted.

    Yes I oppose communities having to behave like businesses. They’re much stronger institutions, *cough*, and those that collectively realize this do well enough without Boeing. Culture and food trucks bring businesses and skilled workers, too. And the result is far more organic, lasting, enjoyable, and contributes more to city pride than business/city partnerships that quickly turn abusive and eventually ends when the abusive business heads for some other city it can manipulate, leaving miles of decrepit infrastructure, thousands of bankruptcies and foreclosures, and heaps of municipal debt in its wake.
     
  19. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
     
  20. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    A lot of ignorance in this thread.

    Importing 25k highly paid workers that will crash the rental market and real estate market (2 separate markets) and gentrify the area is entirely different than welcoming immigrants who do the jobs that anyone on this board would never want to do, and are fine with working for zero benefits and slave wages.

    There was Amazon execs buying condos before the deal was announced. Only a fool or an Amazon exec would sit here try to argue this is about job creation, stimulating the economy, and benefiting the residents of Long Island City.

    Only the heavily invested into Amazon win and the residents of LIC and taxpayers of NY lose.
     
  21. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    How, exactly, do people "lose" when there is a growing economy? And don't give me another platitude. Try to actually articulate a sound position.
     
  22. cwobrien11

    cwobrien11 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    9,073
    Likes Received:
    8,111
    How?
     
  23. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    I have friends and family that both rent and own in Queens. They aren't the sort of people dialed into politics. They are planning parties up and down the block to celebrate. They know their neighborhood, their way of life will no longer be under threat.
     
  24. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    And people like french fries. That doesn't make them healthy.
     
  25. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    Where are you from and where do you live now?
     
  26. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    What's your real question?
     
  27. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    You either understand what gentrification does and its devastating impact on the community is or you don't.

    Based upon your words here, I've decided you don't. In fact it is very likely you think it's a myth or more likely never lived in an area on either side of it so you just don't understand it.

    The latter is OK, not too many can easily choose where they live.
     
  28. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    You've decided a lot of things that aren't so.

    And you haven't provided an economic case that growth is bad.

    As for gentrification, I fully understand. Growth isn't without it's challenges. But would you rather create more opportunity or less? Can a bigger pie feed more people or fewer?

    It's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that people look at growth and only see the challenges and not the opportunities. I guess it takes a village...
     
  29. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    I live in a 1600+ sq foot condo that sells for twice as much as the average house in legoland AKA west of Iowa St in Lawrence. Daycare for one child is half a mile away and it costs exactly the same as in-state tuition for the University of Kansas and I pay it every year.

    25 years ago the Chicago Tribune wouldn't deliver to this neighborhood, and the taxis would rarely pick up and drop off here. But there was families that lived here for generations owned their houses with affordable property taxes.

    Those generations of families are long gone as the real estate values bottle-rocketed straight up into the air and long established businesses closed. A legendary music venue is shuttered and will soon be a Target.

    Some of you reading this would argue this is a very good thing because it means an economic boom occurred all because you have never been priced out of your homes and displaced out of your way of life.

    Just know that the long time residents of Long Island City are fvcking Jubilant right now. Jubilant with a capital J.
     
  30. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    Father please bless this child as he does not know
     
  31. cwobrien11

    cwobrien11 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    9,073
    Likes Received:
    8,111
    I believe the bold sentence, more than anything else, is dictating beliefs.

    I've been following the Amazon HQ2 stuff for quite a while so I'm more versed on it than what I was letting on. Forgive me for being a bit of a snake in the grass. I firmly believe that the people that are praising this as a win for New York don't actually understand what was in the deal. If they did, they may not be touting it as a win...they may still have tried/succeeded in pushing them out, but they wouldn't be calling it a win. In no way, shape, or form is this a win for New York.

    The incentives that the state of New York and NYC were offering weren't lump sum incentives. It's not like Amazon was going to receive the incentives in the first five years and then have the ability to back away from their obligation. They were offered over a handful of different schedules...most falling in either a 10-15 year incentive schedule or a 10-25 year incentive schedule. The awarding of those incentives was 100% dependent on Amazon meeting very specific criteria. If Amazon didn't meet the criteria, they would not receives those incentives that year. Additionally, all of the incentives from NYC are general incentives that ANY business qualifies for (incentives for developing certain underdeveloped areas, incentives for job creation, etc.). They weren't created for Amazon...Amazon was just taking advantage of the incentives that were already there although they were doing so with volume.

    The incentives were also scaled out over a series of years. The most incentives that they were going to give out in a given year was a little north of 300 mil. Most years it would be less than 100 mil. The state of New York was would have received approximately 221 mil/year and NYC was close to 150 mil/year in income tax. In the year that they would provide the highest incentives to Amazon, they would still be +70 mil in income tax revenues. Most years, the state and city would combine to NET nearly 300 mil.

    The deal was very well negotiated. People make a big deal about the total amount that Amazon received without understanding all of the concessions that Amazon made to NYC specifically. This wasn't Amazon dictating terms...this was Amazon coming to mutually agreeable terms. These are some of the things that Amazon had agreed to:

    -Build a 600+ student school (comparable school construction costs in NYC have been in the ballpark of 20-25 mil)
    -Pay NYC 15-17 mil per year over 40 years for city infrastructure improvements
    -Pay for the development and maintenance of a 3.5 acre public waterfront park in the Anable Basin area of LIC
    -Create approximately 25,000 sq. ft. of space for community facility use/artist workspace
    -Create approximately 10,000 sq. ft. of space for an art and tech accelerator
    -Create approximately 10,000 sq. ft. of space for community workforce development and training space
    -Create approximately 250,000 sq. ft. of light manufacturing space.
    -Create and operate a technology training and recruitment program that targets local under represented groups
    -Host semi-annual job fairs and resume workshops for the Queensbridge Housing projects for at least the first 3-5 years.

    All told, Amazon had agreed to spend nearly 1 bil directly on projects that would benefit the local area.
     
    kennethku likes this.
  32. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    You forgot:

    Getting priced out of their homes and being forced to pack it up and move to a different neighborhood which means getting a new job because they can't commute to their old one if their employer is even lucky to afford their own rents to stay in business.

    All of those improvements you mentioned by the way would benefit the ones able to afford to elevated real estate prices, not the majority of the EXISTING community.

    And as we've seen time and time again, a significant portion of what is even promised usually never happens. Look at Foxconn for the latest swindle and empty promises in a long line of them.

    You are advocating for a sea change of an established community as if it's a good thing. And for some, it is, for many, not so much.
     
  33. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    I want to say this one more time in case anyone missed it in a previous post:

    The residents of Long Island City are fvcking Jubilant with a capital J.

    Jubilant.
     
  34. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    Anyone else notice the irony that the same people against welfare to help out struggling families and individuals are also the most passionate about corporate welfare?

    They detest socialism in theory (With the convenient allowance for the military, fire/police protection, roads, schools, parks where it serves them) to demand and require the redistribution of wealth from the people to large multi-national corporations?
     
  35. !hawk!

    !hawk! All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,537
    Likes Received:
    551
    It’s like the people arguing for Amazon won’t even entertain a world where businesses build their headquarters and cities don’t slavishly polish their knobs. There doesn’t have to be a race to the bottom.
     
    floydmaster likes this.
  36. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    It isn't a race to the bottom. Unless you consider choosing to not understand how incentives work the intentional decay of lucidity.

    No one coerced the governments into providing incentives. Why would you blame Amazon for negotiating the best place to put it's HQ2? It's their duty to their shareholders to do as much. I'd bet there are jubilant people on Long Island that own shares of this evil company in their 401k or pension. Are they evil too?
     
  37. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,693
    Likes Received:
    5,739
    You're projecting. I don't care if incentives are offered or not. I was just trying to explain how and why it works because your original post made it clear that you though NY was "paying" Amazon $3B to open HQ2 there is an important misunderstanding.
     
  38. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    Exactly this, thank you.

    It is not their duty to anyone else but their shareholders and their shareholders only.
     
  39. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    You were just trying to explain why you feel it's ok for large corporations to displace entire communities so a tiny amount of rich people can get richer and you feel deeply disturbed that anyone would question it all because you've never had to experience a hardship like that.
     
  40. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,135
    Likes Received:
    782
    Location:
    Chicago
    Before NYC was announced, Amazon execs were buying up condos in anticipation.

    Does anyone else not understand what follows that? Imagine a world where your rent or property taxes quadruple overnight and you're told to GTFO.

    The proponents of this deal have never faced anything remotely similar to this.

    I will say it one more time: Jubliant are the people in Long Island City.
     

Share This Page