Who Will Get Dem Nomination?

Discussion in 'The Slant Political Board' started by Jmerhawk, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. viviajm

    viviajm Ring of Honor
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    Nobody is addressing a very improtant item of our healthcare. People below 65 get to determine how much healthcare they want and are willing to pay for. Medicaid picks up coverage for the poor. States run the medicaid programs. People below 65 that are disabled for 2 years automatically go on medicare. People with end stage renal and Lou Gerigs desease go on medicare early and without the delay. At 65 people have a lot of options when dealing with medicare.

    Of course, with any system some people fall through the cracks, or are border line, or have been "dealt a bad hand". But there is help for those from a variety of organizations. The bottom line is we can make adjustments, and not have to re-invent the wheel. When I look at the crowd Bernie is preaching to and trying to placate they are young enough to get jobs so they can have insurance thorugh work, or make enough to buy it. They have all kinds of opportunites to be able to pay for heathcare as it exists today in this country.
     
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  2. Marlattman84

    Marlattman84 Preferred walk on
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    Private Insurance carriers are contracted by the CMS to administer the MCR program so this statement is operationally untrue. The Government does nothing more than write the rules and oversee the contractors. It might appear that way on paper but the insurance companies manipulate their financial statements for tax purposes so you can't rely on them to paint the true picture. Overhead is overhead no matter how they "allocate" those costs, they are still there. They just pass more of them on to private beneficiaries so it looks like the Govt is getting a good deal. They aren't. It costs the same (perhaps even more) to administer the MCR and MCD programs.
     
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  3. viviajm

    viviajm Ring of Honor
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    I like my current federal income tax level with my own options for healthcare. If you want a 60 % tax rate added on to the VAT then you have your pick of countries, but in reality the US has the best healthcare system for the elderly. I'm am not saying it could be better, but options and personal responsibilty out weigh "free" with no options and less care in the latter years.
     
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  4. RMHawk

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    We can agree to disagree on that. But, tell me how you would fix a health care system with the highest costs in the industrialized that produces mediocre macro results. As I have said more than once, I’d fire a department head whose operations were high costs and mediocre results. I’d don’t have all the answers but fundamental change is called for.
     
  5. Marlattman84

    Marlattman84 Preferred walk on
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    Good question without a simple answer. I worked at BCBSKS for 8 years and if you only knew how much time those people waste every day at their jobs, you'd really go ballistic. I'd estimate average time worked per 8 hour shift to be around 4-5 hours tops. Hell there were some days where I put in only 2-3 hours of work and collected the full paycheck. I'd walk around, shoot the sh!t, email chicks that worked there, etc. As long as my projects were completed and accurate, no one cared. Manager pay was partially tied to the number of FTEs in their dept. so even thinking of cutting positions was met with Hellfire. And this was especially true for Govt program cost centers.

    That said, I remember in the early 90's when Pharma Companies were allowed to start advertising on TV, I said "Holy Sh!t, there goes the cost of HC. Invest in them NOW."HC costs were manageable and affordable until then. Too bad I was never well enough off to invest. Still kicking myself for that one. Everyone talks about R&D costs. Let's talk about advertising and media costs. How many commercials do you see on TV and your devices for Drugs? Get rid of those, we'd be stable in a day.
     
  6. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    Here's the problem for Dems. Those that support single-payer or medicare for all can't win a general election.

    Here's why:

    "The poll found that Americans initially support “Medicare-for-all,” 56 percent to 42 percent.

    However, those numbers shifted dramatically when people were asked about the potential impact, pro and con.

    Support increased when people were told “Medicare-for-all” would guarantee health insurance as a right (71 percent) and eliminate premiums and reduce out-of-pocket costs (67 percent).

    But if they were told that a government-run system could lead to delays in getting care or higher taxes, support plunged to 26 percent and 37 percent, respectively. Support fell to 32 percent if it would threaten the current Medicare program."

    https://www.apnews.com/4516833e7fb644c9aa8bcc11048b2169
     
  7. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    Actually I would disagree with your assessment. If over half the population already thinks medicare for all is a good idea, and the mechanics of creating it is where the quibble arises, they are already ahead of the game. It's a lot harder for the GOP to argue, "let's keep things how they are".

    If I'm a politician running with a policy proposal that enjoys 56% name support right off the bat, i'm pretty happy with that.
     
  8. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
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    I think you're assessment is dead wrong. The poll clearly points out that people ONLY like the idea when it's bumper stick or they think someone else is going to pay for it.

    As soon as they learn it will raise taxes and/or it might create wait times and/or they will lose access to medicare (older voters) support evaporates.

    I mean, it's what adults everywhere understand about all things.

    Do you want a ferarri? YES!

    It's $400,000. NO!
     
    48 jt212713, Sep 19, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
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  9. viviajm

    viviajm Ring of Honor
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    I just can't see how anyone will honestly believe that it won't be free. "Medicare for all" isn't the same as "Free healthcare". This country was and is still built on its citizens having options. Options in employment, education, religion, and where to live. There is no federal law saying a person can only work 8 hours a day or can't have a part time job. Nobody forced anyone to go to a private college they couldn't afford. Life is about options. Why go back to the feudal systme with monarchs?
     
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  10. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
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    It's actully quite easy to 'fix healthcare'...by fixing what is broken.
    1. Fund Medicare and Medicaid properly. Put the money back that has been stolen over the years.
    2. Put limits on malpractice lawsuits. Thy only drive up costs and never reach the goal of punishing the target.
     
  11. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    But those are all presumptions. On it's face people like it so it's how it's structured is secondary.

    I remember when people were asked if they liked Obamacare and the resounding answer was no. When they were asked if they liked the components of Obamacare, without calling it Obamacare, the answer was yes. The negativity associated with the idea is what hurt Ds.

    If you can win the branding game, you are more likely to win the entire game. So yes, I think it's a huge step for the Ds.
     
  12. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
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    That's the problem with this process. How its structured needs to be primary. Of course people are going to like something if they don't think it's going to cost them anything. But if we're going to be responsible with out money and help as many people as possible without turning into Greece, we can't afford to gloss over the structure...which is what you've been doing.

    And of course, you'd get those results when asked about Obamacare. Of course the components will get support...they don't have a price tag attached. JT got it right...I'd love to own a Ferrari...just wish I had the money to buy it.
     
  13. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    But half the political battle is getting the outcome agreed upon. If the population was steadfast against medicare for all, you'd see far less support and interest from the Ds.

    We of course have to work through the process of how we implement it, but if you're a politician, you want the poll that says the populace is largely in favor of what you want to do.
     
  14. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
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    The problem with that is the politicians are putting their finger on the scale by not talking about the cost. Here are two questions:

    1. Do you support a method of healthcare where all your health needs will be paid for and covered by the gov't?
    2. Do you support a method of healthcare where all your health needs are covered but will necessitate a significant increase in your taxes?

    #1 is going to get much more support than #2...yet #2 is a more fair representation of what will happen. #1 is what the Dems are doing because they want the support to push their agenda. If they were truly responsible and after the best interests of the Public, they would ask #2.

    If they get solid support on #2, then you got something.
     
  15. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    And that all comes out as they develop the law. In fact, the CBO does an economic impact study.

    But the point of the poll was jt saying the Ds are in trouble, but that's simply not the case.

    Let me ask this: if you want to start a new initiative, would you rather have the goal be supported or not supported by the public?
     
  16. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
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    Then develop the law....no one is stopping the Dems from proposing legislation. Develop it and THEN ask for support....when there's something to look at. Asking someone if they want some pie-in-the-sky, kick ass benefit without talking about how it's done is irresponsible.

    That's the wrong question to ask. The first question should be, 'do I think its a good idea and, if so, how would I make it happen.' It should not be, 'how do I word the question to avoid the obvious holes in my initiative?'
     
  17. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    You're creating your own line of argument here and ignoring what the thread was about. JT posted a poll that said people are supportive of welfare for all but not supportive of presumptions of how we get there. He said that was bad for Ds. I'm arguing the opposite. This has nothing to do with what you're alleging in this post and everything to do with whether the population being behind the concept of welfare for all is good or bad for Ds. I think a concept being supported by the population is good for the party pushing it.
     
  18. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    You are so out of touch with reality, this is comical. This exists for a tiny fraction. Most young people are behind the eight ball by default. We've discussed this before but things have changed since you were in your 20s (I'm guessing 50+ years ago).

    Honest question, you take advantage of Medicare and would be affected if it went away, right?
     
  19. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
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    Oh please. Young people consider themselves 'behind the eight ball' because they're just starting out...you're not supposed to have everything handed to you the day after graduation....that's not how life works. You work a job, gain experience and become valuable to them. THAT'S when you start getting paid. Talk about out of touch with reality...
     
  20. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    You think they all are entitled and lazy. But the fact is, higher education cost next to nothing when Vivia was going to school.

    A butcher in the meat dept at Jewl-Osco or Hyvee could provide a living for a family of four while the wife stayed at home, send their kids to college, go to vacations every year. Someone doing that job today makes $7.25 an hour or slightly more if their state mandates a higher min wage than the federal one.

    Wages used to be pegged to inflation but in the 1970s that stopped, all the while C level executive compensation has gone exponentially through the roof.

    People no loner have pensions. Workers are getting stripped more and more of their benefits.

    Many kids today work multiple jobs in order to get access to healthcare, many can't afford college.

    Sure sure, you can cherry pick anecdotal evidence of lazy hipsters not wanting to do anything, but you're only fooling yourself if you think Vivia's generation didn't have it easier in spades then Gen Z today.
     
  21. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    2001, if you have *any* shred of objectivity then you need to watch Inequality For All, a Robert Reich documentary.

    It explains entirely what I just glossed over. Real economists, accurate historical evidence. The facts can't be denied. One can of course wiggle their way around to find a different reason as to why things changed from then to now and downplay the facts though.
     
  22. Hawker-2001

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    Viv's generation fought a war and when they came back they didn't have the safety nets that yours does now. You look at those times through a history book...and then cherry pick the things that make it look easier.

    I in fact DO NOT think millenials are entitled or lazy. Just about every millenial I've met has been hard working and making it work for them...which is how its supposed to be. It's the whiners that want everything handed to them on a silver platter that I consider entitled and lazy.
    .
     
  23. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    lol, they fought WWII oh they were so righteous and noble and tough. Sure. They also benefited from not having to depend on usurious pay day loan stores in between paychecks, underwater mortgages and 100k in revolving credit card debt just to get buy because their benefits as a work has been stripped to the bone, wages stagnated for decades yet their top brass have quadrupled their already obscene compensation packages. They got college for next to nothing.

    Viv's generation got theirs and left jack shit behind because they're dying off every day and they don't GAF.

    Only in America do people work at a job they absolutely loathe for next to no money but it gives them a health insurance plan that their other two jobs have to cover the co-pays, deductibles, and in some cases other premiums. Or they can be very "lucky " and land a part time job at a starbucks to get another terrible healthcare plan but only need ONE other job.

    Sure there are jobs out there that pay very well, and the people not born into the birth lotto do manage to obtain the mythical bootstraps and use their rugged individualism and all that Ronnie Reagan horse shit but I'm talking about reality and the majority of people in both generations.
     
  24. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    I know you won't bother watching the documentary but for others, they examine this graph, compiled and studied by Piketty and Saez, two highly respected economists.

    [​IMG]

    Can you guess what happened in 1929 and 2008?

    Go back and read my comments about the butcher in the meat department at the grocery store supporting his family of four and putting his kids through college. Don't think I didn't notice 2001 didn't push back on that; of course those inconvenient truths are easily ignored.

    But look at the 1940s right up until Ronald Reagan takes office in 1981. This was when wages were pegged to inflation, and the safeguards implemented by FDR were put in place after the big crash. This was the era when Viv's generation had it easy compared to Gen Y and Z today.

    We put out damned hand on the stove once, then twice again. And we're going to do it again.

    You're advocating and defending Socialism and you don't even see it. The redistribution of wealth. It's just from the many to the few, not the other way around.
     
  25. AZ j-hawk

    AZ j-hawk All-American
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    How old is viv?
     
  26. Hawker-2001

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    Wow, what an ungrateful little shit.
     
  27. jayhawkart

    jayhawkart Senior
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    Comrade Nick has gone off the deep end. Must realize commie Bernie won't win the nomination.
     
  28. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    You know nothing. Enjoy your bubble.
     
  29. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    Avoid the truth best you can. You're the guy that got an STD but ignored it.
     
  30. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    Old enough to enjoy the benefits that FDR put in place to get his but shit all over another generation he doesn't identify with that would appreciate the same so he can call them lazy.
     
  31. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    On the record: I have been called insults by multiple people but not one. Zero is the number. Zero, AKA not one, has been the number of people able to push back on the facts I've thrown down.

    Not one of you can refute it. You know it, you ignore it.

    What a horrible existence it must be, knowing you are wrong but still trying to come back and hit someone on it knowing you are wrong.
     
  32. Hawker-2001

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    I've refuted every single one. You're the one delusional enough to ignore it. The number of times I've lined out why your healthcare wetdream alone is crap....and your answer has been, "bernie's gonna do it".

    You accuse me of living in a bubble, but you're the one living in a delusion. The only thing that's horrible here is listening to you disrespect all the people that have given you the chances that you take for granted. It's pathetic.
     
  33. AZ j-hawk

    AZ j-hawk All-American
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    Again, how old is viv? I’m guessing he’s a baby boomer and not from the greatest generation.
     
  34. Hawker-2001

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    Even if you're right, baby boomers fought in Vietnam.

    But that's not the point. The point is the millions of veterans that have sacrificed to make this country what it is and to hear youngsters dissing them? Blaming all their problems on other people? No, not having it.
     
  35. AZ j-hawk

    AZ j-hawk All-American
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    That’s just a load of self righteous bullshit. Giving generations a pass for major fvck ups because some of them fought in wars is beyond ignorant.

    Honestly not surprised it’s your take though. You’re as disingenuous as they come.
     
  36. Hawker-2001

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    Shocked that you take it in a completely different direction than my words. I in no way 'give them a pass'...what I am saying is that its way more complicated than the like of nick makes it out to be. And disparaging people without taking into account the whole picture is the epitome of self righteous bullshit.

    Every generation has blamed the ones before it for all their problems...hell I did it when I was in college. But that doesn't make it right. It's much more complicated than that and the sooner millenials 'get' that whining like little bitches isn't going to save them, the better all of us will be.
     
  37. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    Oh brother. Millennials are in Afghanistan and Iraq right now. Many of those who fought in Vietnam went unwillingly. Quit pretending that because a few from a generation fought in a war their generation is entitled to deified status. Every generation has had wars to deal with.
     
  38. hill6

    hill6 Senior
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    Agree that every generation blames the generation before them. And know what every 'before' generation does? Blames the new generation as being lazy and ungrateful, just like you are doing with Millennials.
     
  39. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
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    Exactly so, except if you check I'm not calling the new generation lazy and ungrateful...merely the whiny little bitches like Nick. I in fact was upfront about the vast majority of millenials being hard-working and driven. You're spot on otherwise.
     
  40. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
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    While 2001 can call others names out of frustration from the facts, let's get back to the thread title.

    I'd like to enter into the record one more time, especially after the recent positive events for his campaign:

    Bernie
     

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