Now for something completely different from the transfer portal and recruiting...
I wrote to Travis Goff (cc: to Chancellor Girod) about this.
Got nothing back.
Here's my "decision paper" for your consideration and vote.
You can tell me to go pound sand if you disagree (I won't do it, but you can tell me to...)
BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT (BLUF – or TLDR if you prefer)
The official KU (and thus NCAA) records for the AY2022-23 season should show that Norm Roberts was 7-2 in the 9 games he coached in place of Bill Self. Bill Self’s record should show he was 21-6 for the season, and thus Self’s total record should read -
577-130 at KANSAS
784-235 for his entire career and
55-21 (46-16 at KU) in the NCAA Tournament
FACTS
1. In January 1947 doctors forced Forrest C. “Phog” Allen to the bench with 13 games completed and 14 games left in the season. Assistant Coach and one time KU star hoopster Howard Engleman coached the Jayhawks for those 14 games. His 8-6 record is in the KU and NCAA record books as his and is NOT included in Phog Allen’s career record (590-219 at KU and 746-264 for his entire career).
2. Prior to the AY2022-23 season KU Athletics announced the self-imposed, NCAA sanctions related suspensions of both Self and Assistant Coach Kurtis Townsend. At that time KU Athletics told the public the four (4) games Roberts would coach in the absence of Self would count as “program” games, not attributable to either Roberts or Self.
3. Roberts ended up coaching 9 games total due to Self’s health crisis in the post-season. Roberts coached KU to a 4-0 record in the first 4 games and a 3-2 record in the Big 12 (2-1) and NCAA (1-1) tournaments, finishing AY2022-23 with a 7-2 overall record.
4. Based on the final Post-Game Notes of the season, KU Athletics is including Roberts’ 7-2 acting head coach performance as part of Self’s record. https://kuathletics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/36-Arkansas.pdf
To quote from the document, “The KU loss… Made Bill Self 584-132 while at Kansas, 791-237 all-time and 56-22 in the NCAA Tournament (47-17 while at Kansas).”
That’s...
KU 584-132; Career 791-237; NCAA Tournament 56-22 (47-17 at KU) versus
KU 577-130; Career 784-235; NCAA Tournament 55-21 (46-16 at KU), which is Self’s record without the 9 games coached by Roberts.
5. Next season Self is poised to pass Allen as the winningest coach in KU history. Whether he needs 7 wins or 14 wins to pass Allen depends entirely on how KU Athletics accounts for the games Roberts coached in the official records.
DISCUSSION
1. Phog Allen’s 590 KU wins is a major record in the KU and NCAA records book.
2. Following KU historical precedent, in order for the records comparison to be “apples to apples”, all of the games Roberts coached in the post-season during Self’s health crisis should be counted as his record, and not included in Self’s record. This would be comparable to how the record was recorded for Allen and Engleman in 1946-47.
3. Following KU Athletics earlier announcement regarding the first four games of the season, as a minimum those games should not be included in Self’s record. They should either be counted as “program” games as originally announced, or be included in Roberts’ record for AY2022-23. The latter really is preferable, in line with the previously referenced historical KU precedent of attributing wins and losses to the assistant coaches who stepped up when the head coach was not available.
4. It should be noted that the NCAA might not count the first 4 games of the season as Self’s given the KU imposed suspension of Self. The NCAA will most likely be even further unhappy with KU for including them in light of KU being on record that it would not.
5. It should also be noted that non-KU college basketball fans might accuse KU of trying to pad Self’s record. In particular I think Kansas State and Missouri fans would have a field day in the regular media and social media. You can easily see it coming.
6. Self does not need “cooked books” accounting to plant his flag on the KU summit next season. Points 4 and 5 are both easily avoided by KU Athletics acting in accordance with the historical KU precedent and counting the Roberts games as his record instead of including the results of those games in Self’s record.
CONCLUSION
See the BLUF at the beginning of this discussion piece.
So there ya go, something different to talk about should you choose to do so...
I wrote to Travis Goff (cc: to Chancellor Girod) about this.
Got nothing back.
Here's my "decision paper" for your consideration and vote.
You can tell me to go pound sand if you disagree (I won't do it, but you can tell me to...)
BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT (BLUF – or TLDR if you prefer)
The official KU (and thus NCAA) records for the AY2022-23 season should show that Norm Roberts was 7-2 in the 9 games he coached in place of Bill Self. Bill Self’s record should show he was 21-6 for the season, and thus Self’s total record should read -
577-130 at KANSAS
784-235 for his entire career and
55-21 (46-16 at KU) in the NCAA Tournament
FACTS
1. In January 1947 doctors forced Forrest C. “Phog” Allen to the bench with 13 games completed and 14 games left in the season. Assistant Coach and one time KU star hoopster Howard Engleman coached the Jayhawks for those 14 games. His 8-6 record is in the KU and NCAA record books as his and is NOT included in Phog Allen’s career record (590-219 at KU and 746-264 for his entire career).
2. Prior to the AY2022-23 season KU Athletics announced the self-imposed, NCAA sanctions related suspensions of both Self and Assistant Coach Kurtis Townsend. At that time KU Athletics told the public the four (4) games Roberts would coach in the absence of Self would count as “program” games, not attributable to either Roberts or Self.
3. Roberts ended up coaching 9 games total due to Self’s health crisis in the post-season. Roberts coached KU to a 4-0 record in the first 4 games and a 3-2 record in the Big 12 (2-1) and NCAA (1-1) tournaments, finishing AY2022-23 with a 7-2 overall record.
4. Based on the final Post-Game Notes of the season, KU Athletics is including Roberts’ 7-2 acting head coach performance as part of Self’s record. https://kuathletics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/36-Arkansas.pdf
To quote from the document, “The KU loss… Made Bill Self 584-132 while at Kansas, 791-237 all-time and 56-22 in the NCAA Tournament (47-17 while at Kansas).”
That’s...
KU 584-132; Career 791-237; NCAA Tournament 56-22 (47-17 at KU) versus
KU 577-130; Career 784-235; NCAA Tournament 55-21 (46-16 at KU), which is Self’s record without the 9 games coached by Roberts.
5. Next season Self is poised to pass Allen as the winningest coach in KU history. Whether he needs 7 wins or 14 wins to pass Allen depends entirely on how KU Athletics accounts for the games Roberts coached in the official records.
DISCUSSION
1. Phog Allen’s 590 KU wins is a major record in the KU and NCAA records book.
2. Following KU historical precedent, in order for the records comparison to be “apples to apples”, all of the games Roberts coached in the post-season during Self’s health crisis should be counted as his record, and not included in Self’s record. This would be comparable to how the record was recorded for Allen and Engleman in 1946-47.
3. Following KU Athletics earlier announcement regarding the first four games of the season, as a minimum those games should not be included in Self’s record. They should either be counted as “program” games as originally announced, or be included in Roberts’ record for AY2022-23. The latter really is preferable, in line with the previously referenced historical KU precedent of attributing wins and losses to the assistant coaches who stepped up when the head coach was not available.
4. It should be noted that the NCAA might not count the first 4 games of the season as Self’s given the KU imposed suspension of Self. The NCAA will most likely be even further unhappy with KU for including them in light of KU being on record that it would not.
5. It should also be noted that non-KU college basketball fans might accuse KU of trying to pad Self’s record. In particular I think Kansas State and Missouri fans would have a field day in the regular media and social media. You can easily see it coming.
6. Self does not need “cooked books” accounting to plant his flag on the KU summit next season. Points 4 and 5 are both easily avoided by KU Athletics acting in accordance with the historical KU precedent and counting the Roberts games as his record instead of including the results of those games in Self’s record.
CONCLUSION
See the BLUF at the beginning of this discussion piece.
So there ya go, something different to talk about should you choose to do so...
Last edited:
