Medicare for all

Discussion in 'The Slant Political Board' started by viviajm, May 6, 2019.

  1. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    First, because I'm not a conservative, I'm a moderate...which you apparently can't tell the difference. Second, I'm not against tax cuts...I'm against socialists calling things tax cuts that aren't. And then I'm against liberals that don't know what a tax cut is and try to lambast those of us that do. Third, now you're telling us what we've read and what we haven't. Fourth, you may have read the words but you have not gained any meaning from it.
     
  2. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Oh I know the difference. I also know that moderates don't normally defend billion dollar private insurance companies denying treatment to cancer patients.

    It's a tax cut.

    Once just ends up in private capital, the other ends up in the government.

    I bet you didn't even know that SCOTUS (with a 5-4 conservative to liberal split) ruled that under the ACA the mandate or penalty is a tax. They literally ruled that healthcare expenses are taxes. And it wasn't some liberal majority saying that. John Roberts.

    This is air tight. You don't have to like to Bernie's tax cut upon the middle class and providing healthcare to all.

    But it's a tax cut.

    You clearly haven't read it. I'm the only one on here that has. That is a fact.

    I'd bet anything you haven't read his plan. But if you have, why haven't you attacked specific points?

    All you got is blah blah the big bad government sucks at everything. Except NASA, and my roads. And the parks. And 911. And the forest service. And public schools, and the miltary. etc, etc.

    I feel like if I escaped a North Korean camp I was born in, repatriated into South Korea and found this board. I'd picture America just as bad as the DPRK.
     
  3. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ask yourself how much you and your family would save. Not only would you save money but you'll get access to dental, hearing (including hearing aids which are expensive AF), vision, mental health. Out of pocket max for RX is either $200 or $250, can't remember which right now.

    You'll never get denied treatment. You won't be forced to work a job you can't stand because you need coverage. You'll have more power when it comes to negotiating benefits and compensation. You'll be able to keep your Doctor, in fact you'll have better choice since there is no "out of network". You can simply go to the one that has the most convenient location.

    No, there won't be massive lines or reduction in quality. If you're ultra wealthy you can also straight up buy your own services off the government dime if you prefer. Ask yourselves why Medical Tourism is a thing, and why are many people going on vacation to countries with government healthcare and receiving services?

    Look a this chart and ask yourself how much you'll save. If you end up spending money, congratulations, you're rich and this isn't going to break you.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    I remember when I first signed up for this very board I wasn't even making $10/hr. This was before I left Lawrence and made it big on my own but I digress.

    I didn't go to the dentist because it was another bill. I brushed regularly and tried to floss routinely but I had a couple cavities, then I had wisdom teeth, all four had to be extracted. When it was all said and done I had to pay like $700 but fortunately the Dentist agreed to perform the services and took the gamble that I would show up every payday with whatever cash I could give him. Zero credit is bad credit so I couldn't finance it, not because I was some irresponsible person, in fact I felt I was being responsible by not allowing myself to go into debt.

    Oh, and then there was the time where I had a prescription that cost me $80/month until I just stopped buying it. I went without.

    Under Bernie's proposal I would have gotten regular cleanings every 6 months. After about month three I wouldn't have paid anymore for the script.

    I was lucky, I had two roommates so my indentured servitude allowed me to still find decent human beings as roommates so I could get a roof over my head. I did all the right things too.. brought lunch to work, went out the bar on the occasional friday or saturday for a couple $1.50 cheap beers sure, but lived very frugal. I paid the monthly sub for this board and bought the occasional ticket to a game, that was the extent of my indulgences.

    I had it easy because I wasn't a single parent raising kids. Good grief. It's criminal that we allow this to happen today. What is wrong with all you detractors?
     
  5. viviajm

    viviajm Ring of Honor
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    15,269
    Likes Received:
    2,510
    Location:
    Liberty, MO
    Where is the tax cut and to whom? I realize words have meaning, but that doesn't mean writing it down automatically shows it will work. I don't care you slice it, giving stuff for free disincentivises people to earn. I have never seen a valid argue on making it free or in this case what and how is it free. Medicare for seniors is not free. How will adding to the rest of the population be affordable? Only tax payers pay into it, so add in the illegals and those that do't file taxes or are of the criminal element that hide a high per centage of earnings and add to the great left giveaway. Pile school loan forgiveness on top of it. Just becasue a ranting old man screaming at young people gets some traction does not mean it is feasible. What is feasable and practical is improving what we got. In order to do that it will take bipartisanship. That's where the ACA fell apart. We have all the pieces. Not we need to complete the puzzle.
     
  6. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    SCOTUS ruled the mandate was a tax. That's how it was held up - that congress has the authority to levy taxes. Even if it wasn't declared a tax look at the chart above.

    Money in - money out. Only a few elite high income earners pay more.

    That can not be disputed. What can be argued, is saying that it would be a big house of cards and the big bad government while capable of putting 12 men on the moon and operating the largest socialist program AKA the military, isn't capable of doing what every other industrialized nation on this earth does, operating an effective nationalized healthcare system that provides coverage to all.

    Once again I think you think Bernie wants to take the existing Medicare program in it's entirety and provide that to everyone.

    Don't think like that. Let's pretend this is called Berniecare. Because what he wants to do is beyond existing Medicare.

    You're attacking the current flaws of Medicare and applying it to Berniecare and that's apples to oranges.

    I agree the ACA was a cluster. It at least put a few more million on healthcare. In its original implementation and proposal there was to be a public option but Lieberman threatened to axe it and he was the swing vote. It wouldn't have been better than destroying for-profit private insurance but it would have been much better than the Frankenstein of compromises. Funny how at first even Democrats ran away from "Obamacare" first couple years, then flash forwards to 2018 and the impending Blue Wave, Repubs in swing districts were running TO health care.

    But let me ask you this: Did you look at the chart? How much would you have saved over your career with that in place? How much money for RX do you pay for now? Do you or your wife require hearing aids?

    Medicare Part D is what, 25% co-pay and with a coverage limit of $3,000? Under Bernie's plan you're out of pocket max is $200 or $250.

    I'm making an assumption here but I assume you're retired. I recall you mentioning you had an annuity so I'm assuming you're on a fixed income and not currently W-2'd somewhere not having to tap into retirement and also getting healthcare subsidized by your employer. You're likely on our current Medicare program which it's implementation is inferior to what Bernie would provide to you.
     
  7. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    Oh I know the difference. I also know that moderates don't normally defend billion dollar private insurance companies denying treatment to cancer patients.

    No, but people that work in healthcare and know how insurance companies work and know how that world operates? They do.


    It's a tax cut.

    Once just ends up in private capital, the other ends up in the government.

    I bet you didn't even know that SCOTUS (with a 5-4 conservative to liberal split) ruled that under the ACA the mandate or penalty is a tax. They literally ruled that healthcare expenses are taxes. And it wasn't some liberal majority saying that. John Roberts.

    This is air tight. You don't have to like to Bernie's tax cut upon the middle class and providing healthcare to all.

    But it's a tax cut.

    Even if all that were true (It's not), that doesn't make it a tax cut, it merely renames the cost...that doesn't make it less than you're already paying. And even if it did, a tax cut to the middle class doesn't make it a tax cut overall. And considering how F'd up our gov't is, there's no way in hell it would be a net tax cut. Saying 'it's a tax cut' just makes you look stupid.


    You clearly haven't read it. I'm the only one on here that has. That is a fact.

    No, that's an opinion...and you'd be wrong. I can guarantee it because I'VE read it...I just don't believe it.


    I'd bet anything you haven't read his plan. But if you have, why haven't you attacked specific points?

    I have...about 20 times. You just don't have answers to my points so you go back to the talking points.


    All you got is blah blah the big bad government sucks at everything. Except NASA, and my roads. And the parks. And 911. And the forest service. And public schools, and the miltary. etc, etc.

    Nah...they suck at most of those things too.


    I feel like if I escaped a North Korean camp I was born in, repatriated into South Korea and found this board. I'd picture America just as bad as the DPRK.

    Not yet. But if we pass what Bernie wants, we'd be getting closer.
     
  8. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Money in - Money out. As explained in the other thread: You think people give a shit what it's called if they're saving thousands of dollars?

    Min wage earners pay $0 whereas before they paid:

    deductibles
    co-pays
    premiums
    out of pocket expenses

    If they didn't want to buy insurance they paid a tax penalty (well, I think there was an exception for low wage earners but most people did).

    At any rate, and this is silly that your crux of the argument is the wording, either way everyone but the wealthy will be saving thousands of dollars.

    Businesses will be saving hundreds of dollars per employee per month.

    Can I get someone to acknowledge that too? No one has addressed that.

    It's still a tax as said by the SCOTUS. Even moreso a tax cut.

    It's a tax cut.

    Conservatives, even moderates are all about tax cuts and easing the burden on businesses, especially small ones.

    Bernie's plan is pro capitalism in the end. More money to be spread around, more jobs. Good ol' fashioned American capitalism.
     
  9. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    No one will address the money saved by businesses not having to struggle to subsidize health insurance to remain competitive for hiring. The hundreds of dollars per month per employee.

    Why is that? They will pay a slight increase in FICA/payroll taxes but they're saving tens of thousands to hundreds of millions per year depending on the size.

    Why is the burden of the employer always always always brought up when opposing a living wage but it's god damned crickets when it's Medicare For All injecting capital to businesses everywhere?

    More people with more money and more employers with more capital = more money circulating throughout the economy and more jobs.

    Bernie's proposal is one of the most pro-capitalist ideas being floated right now.

    Good ol' fashioned capitalism. Why are conservatives and moderates against this idea?
     
  10. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    All of which is fine, but you've still not shown that taxes will go down. Let's say we replace 100% of deductibles, copays, premiums etc with taxes....where's the proof that the taxes will be less than those healthcare costs?

    I don't think people give a shit whether is a premium or a tax as long as its less...I think that's absolutely true. But you haven't shown it to be less...you're ASSUMING it's less.

    And it sure as hell is not less for the wealthy. They still count as Americans right? Or are they slaves to the socialist America now?! If it truly is pro capitalism, you wouldn't be punishing the wealthy for being wealthy.
     
  11. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Where's the proof that the tax bill be less than those healthcare costs? It's easy to calculate!

    4% of income above 29k. Federal min wage is $7.25/hr, full time it is generally agreed that comes out to $15,080.00 per year.

    Look at the chart above! Even if Bernie also got his way with making it $15/hr they would be paying $40 in taxes.

    Where do you find the inflection point? Well that is up to you depending on your salary, marital/family status.

    But let's use an example. Family of four, both working parents, 2 kids. Each parent makes $100k.

    This article is more than 2 years old puts a family of four average medical cost above $25k/year.

    This is not unreasonable to believe that. Under Bernie's plan it's $6840 out of pocket, their employers save thousands of dollars of years when calculating the removal of the healthcare subsidy for family plan and adding in a small payroll tax to fund this whole system.

    Now, if each made $500k/yr their clocking in $1m and paying out $18,840x2 = $37,680. This of course is MAGI. They're likely taking full advantages of tax benefits as they can earning a much higher clip - at that point a Roth IRA is out of the question due to their high income, but they've likely maxed out their Traditional IRA shielding another $12k and other such accountant wizardry but good on them, they are making a minimum of $1m/yr likely much more than that!

    I don't know how much you make, but if someone offered you a job to make that much but be forced remoed $37k of that, would you?

    RE: Slavery. c'mon. Get real. Yes wealthy are Americans and are people to. Many of them earned it thanks to good ol' fashioned American capitalism. Some were born into it, but no one has it out for them on that. At least no one on this board.

    They end up paying a pittance in the end of things. To very wealthy, your entertainers, athletes, C-level execs, that max cost here isn't even a rounding error.

    edit: grammar
     
    91 nick77, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  12. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    Sounds good...now what happens when healthcare costs exceed the funds collected? And they will. You go through all that 'accountant wizardry' to guesstimate whether people will pay more or less, but, again, you're ignoring the elephant in the room. Say you collect all those taxes and it comes out to $2T...what happens when the cost of healthcare for the year is $3T? Who pays the extra trillion bucks?


    The answer is it will get paid by the gov't and they'll need to either borrow or increase taxes to cover it. And we'll pay the tab.

    And as for 'no one has it out for them', GMAFB. The wealthy is the answer for every socialist wetdream you come up with. The problem is they ain't that rich. What happens when the wealthy are not anymore because you took their money?
     
    jt212713 likes this.
  13. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    This is where anyone should be legitimately questioning this. Will it in fact save money? Well, you've already read what I wrote aobut that Koch Brothers think tank concluded we will spend less on healthcare.

    Look at Medicare Part D right. It's illegal for the government to streamline their drug costs. WTF is that? That makes no sense and you have to agree with that.

    A single payer system all for the negotiation and bulk payment of goods and services all around. The service providers alone are saving tons of money and time not having to keep up with each and every private insurer, constantly negotiating payments and acceptance. Talk about a cluster.

    So let's say we implement this and come up short. My wife the other day said how do we pay for it?

    I told her, we can't pay for it. Not with the latest tax scam that blew a $2T hole in the deficit. Not with 2 never ending wars and 9 total countries we're actively bombing. Not with a trillion dollars worth of F-35s just sitting in a hangar doing jack shit.

    She works in defense. She's liberal and supporting Bernie but she wants no part of the military budget being cut. We've litigated the defense budget on here ad naseum and we don't need to go there. I said that even with that military budget we'd able to make up shortcomings if needed.

    Why is it there money to blow $2T into our deficit to give a couple hundred families a fvck ton more money? Why is it there's always money for never ending wars? Why is it there's always money for large corporations that don't uphold their end of the deal like Foxconn?

    There would be money to cover shortcomings.

    FDR didn't end capitalism in America, neither did Ike and his 92% tax rates, neither did Reagan when he raised taxes 11 times.

    You're ok with his holding the tab for a perpetual explosion of deficit to pay for a couple hundred billionaire families but you're not ok with a detailed plan for a Single Payer system that covers all of us, eases the burdens on businesses and stands to stimulate the economy on the premise that there's always the possibility there's a shortfall and we may have to increase the deficit to pay for it?

    did I understand that correctly?

    I'm not even going to go there and address your last paragraph, that's jut bad faith nonsense.
     
  14. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey

    You bring up things that we should change in healthcare...and you bring up things that we should change in defense...and you bring up supposed tax cuts for the wealthy...like that has anything to do with this...and then you bring up FDR, which again has nothing to do with this. The truth is you don't have an answer, and neither does Bernie. Which has been my point from the start.

    The really sad thing about this is that healthcare is not that hard to fix...it doesn't have to cost trillions. All that needs to be done for healthcare to right ITSELF, is for the gov't to live up to its promises. Do that, pass a couple laws that would cost the gov't nothing and we'd be done.
     
  15. viviajm

    viviajm Ring of Honor
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    15,269
    Likes Received:
    2,510
    Location:
    Liberty, MO
    Your overview is correct. There are several things that can be changed and we can maintain our excellent healthcare. The good thing about Medicare is that it is full of choices for people. There is also a safety net for low income seniors. But it is not free except to the very low income. Part of the fix needs to be improvements to the ACA. The first step would be to take the government out of it completly except for the broad guidelines. Then let the marketplace run with it. Also, it would be very simple to give employers incentives to provide care for employees. The hardship is getting Congress to work together. Voters need to demand this. Congress needs to do what they were elected to do.
     
    Hawker-2001 likes this.
  16. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Bernie has a detailed plan more than anyone else. You are just asking what if scenarios.

    Again, I get you don't like idea of single payer and that's your opinion. But you are incorrect in saying that Bernie doesn't have a plan. Believe me, I want this so bad, I would be lamenting on this board how its never gonna happen b/c even if he does get the nomination, beats trump, and out maneuvers the Blue Dog conservatives in Congress in the DNC he has no plan.

    I bring up FDR because on this very board people like JT piss and moan crazy conspiracy theories that Bernie and Warren want to "destroy capitalism" - as in like, you know, commandeer all private businesses and real estate, start dividing up houses and land for others to move in and live off of, we'll all get reassigned work duties and gulags.

    He honestly believes that is the plan. I'm saying what he wants is not radical, we've mostly had it before - he is running as FDR's fourth term.
     
    96 nick77, Nov 5, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  17. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Meanwhile Andrew Yang refuses to scrub Medicare For All from his website after completely abandoning it but he's grifting his base into thinking he does.

    Of all people in the field, he was the one who actually never had a plan and was pissing into the wind. His base doesn't care either - they are actually what Neera Tanden, Jennifer Rubin, and David Brock wanted you to think Bernie supporters were.
     
  18. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    [​IMG]

    Your healthcare isn't even guaranteed if you're employed. Insurers are abruptly removing people from their coverage at the whim of a CEO who determines profitability isn't as high as they would like.
     
  19. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    I never said Bernie doesn't have a plan...I said he doesn't have an answer to that question and because he doesn't, the plan is not real. his plan is half-baked.

    As I've stated on multiple occasions, I don't mind the idea of a single payer system. I mind a gov't like ours that is notorious for overspending and wasting money trying to run such an expensive idea. And I especially mind Democrats acting like their motivations are 'pure as the driven snow' with regards to it.

    I honestly don't care whether an idea is radical or not...I care how he's paying for it and how much its going to cost me.
     
  20. Jsn921

    Jsn921 Junior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    352
    While I agree our health care system needs reform, I don’t agree you can call this plan a tax break. It certainly would be a major tax increase for my family unless we hit our max family out of pocket ($10k) which we have never done. Even if we hit our max family out of pocket it would still be a tax hike. We pay ~ $4,500/yr out of pocket from my employer for coverage for a family of 6.

    At the end of the day you have to consider Bernie and Warren want to increase our taxes for not only healthcare but free college, tuition loan forgiveness, and who knows what they will come up with next. I don’t see how it’s fair to ask the upper middle class and wealthy to disproportionally fund these programs.
     
    jt212713 and Hawker-2001 like this.
  21. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    For you it may not, and god forbid something terrible happens I hope your private insurance covers it all and doesn't reject life saving/quality of life treatment or kick you off of it.

    The overwhelming majority of Americans would save thousands of dollars a year. Not you, not everyone. I'd pay more overall and I'd be able to go to sleep at night knowing if anything terrible happened someone wouldn't be consulting balance sheets or quarterly reports to decide what's covered or not.
     
  22. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    Except if we did go with single payer system, it's MORE likely that someone would be 'consulting balance sheets or quarterly reports to decide what's covered or not'. Just because its covered by the gov't doesn't mean finances won't be taken into account.
     
  23. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    The profit motive would entirely be removed when determining treatment plans under a single payer system and abolition of private insurance.

    Again, you don't have to like it but that is the reality.
     
  24. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    The profit motive would be removed, but it would be replaced with the motive of staying within the required budget as set by the GAO. Decisions would still be made the same way and the end users would not see a significant difference.

    As for what is reality, we've already discussed that. What you think will happen and what will actually happen are two very different things.
     
  25. bjabrad

    bjabrad Hall of Fame
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    30,936
    Likes Received:
    7,515
    For anyone who wants a single payer system like Medicare for all, go look at the wait lists in Canada for what would be basic shit in the states. There are tradeoffs to get your "free" healthcare.

    Canada:

    Note: These wait times do not even include the time before you see a doctor waiting to get an appointment to see a doctor.

    -5 months is the average time between a doctor making a diagnosis and the beginning of treatment. This is a result of built in cost savings to the system.

    -11.7 weeks from cardiologist appointment to treatment.

    -22.5 weeks from gynecologist appointment to treatment.

    -41.7 weeks from orthopedic surgeon appointment/diagnosis to treatment. (that's almost a year).

    -multiple months for brain surgery, heart disease patients, ENT patients, ophthalmology patients (cataract surgery).

    Nobody in the USA has waiting lists for these issues except for patients needed transplants.

    England:

    -20% cancer patients with referrals for urgent cancer treatment wait more than 2 months.

    Single payer aka Medicare-4-All sounds wonderful.

    Reality: It forces the vast majority of middle and upper income citizens to bypass the system and pay for it privately in addition to what they spend via taxes to fund Medicare-4-All.
     
  26. Jsn921

    Jsn921 Junior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    352
    The profit would be removed but there absolutely still needs to be rationing in a single payer system. There is a set pot of money available and that money has to be rationed either by denying coverage or by dictating a treatment plan that weighs cost/outcome not necessarily weighed on what produces the best outcomes. Many residents of countries with single payer system also have supplemental insurance plans to bypass the inefficiencies of the system.
     
  27. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Right. It wouldn't be open season, it would have to be a sensible, smart, efficient approach. It would have its pitfalls and issues and things would evolve and adapt.

    There should be a citizen's oversight board or at the least full transparency to expose any single corrupt individual or even a conspiracy to rip off the taxpaying public for personal gain,

    Many countries have many different implementations. In Australia for instance you get a tax break if you decide to pay out of pocket yourself for private treatment.
     
  28. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    And how often is our gov't know for sensible, smart and efficient?

    As for an oversight board, they do that now. Every insurance company and every hospital and every health system have medical professionals on their oversight boards; medical professionals with their license at stake if they 'toe the company line'. And they've had oversight over every nightmare story you come up with regarding healthcare. So how is a gov't oversight board going to change anything?
     
  29. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Every for profit corporation has one priority über Alles; it is simply to make as much money as possible. CPD had an oversight board and IA and yet for years it literally was Training Day, they had to disband a drug task force because it was a violent criminal organization.

    You keep mentioning how the government is incompetent.

    I have no doubt Liz Warren isn't really trying to implement a single payer system but I have every belief that under a Bernie Sanders administration he would be able to implement a system as I described above.

    In the 1960s without today's technology, some 20 million elderly Americans signed up for Medicare overnight. The way you describe our gov't I'm wondering where all the horror stories are. I'm looking out of my condo right now seeing a beautiful park, city streets, a public school down the road. Once again, 12 men walked on the moon thanks to socialism and a gov't ran agency.

    Any gov't is far from perfect but we have one candidate who wants to entirely expose and remove corruption and reform the entire system.
     
  30. Jsn921

    Jsn921 Junior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    352
    I think it’s crazy to completely scrap our healthcare system and hand it over to the government to run. I am struggling to think of one thing the government runs that would be considered efficient? Granted you need decent insurance in the US but if you have it you’re going to get far superior healthcare here than just about anywhere else in the world. There is a reason people with means from around the world come here for treatment.

    We need to work on access and cost which can be done without scraping the entire thing.
     
    Hawker-2001 likes this.
  31. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    It's scrapping the private insurance industry. Single payer - the government - pays. Everything is streamlined, RX and devices, goods and services can be negotiated down.

    The burden on the providers are eased. They is one payer. Not hundreds of payers you have to negotiate with and to remain on network.

    Every single country that has it now did the same thing.

    I've discussed at length the money saved by *most* Americans (except the rich) and employers; the increase in general consumption and a boon to multiple other industries.

    You know what's crazy? Is not having a single payer system in place. Speak to any conservative from outside of the country, they'll mostly agree. I have.
     
  32. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
  33. Jsn921

    Jsn921 Junior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    352
    I’ll agree to disagree. For my family and I the current system is working okay. Maximum I’m out is $10k + $4,500 paid into the system. I’ll take our superior healthcare over Canada’s. Better doctors, less wait time, better treatment options, etc. I’ll agree that we need revisions to the current system to address cost and availability.

    I was also reading that the average tax paid in Germany for healthcare was 13% of wages. How are we really going to pay for this with a 4% tax?
     
  34. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    It goes well beyond the 4% tax on income over 29k. I broke down all of the options in a detailed post here. I would also like to point there's also opportunity cost of the bombing 8+ countries, the disasterous F-35 program and other wasteful spending.

    What happens if something terrible happens like a family member gets a long drawn out battle with cancer? Do you know if your insurance company will hundred percent cover not just everything for treatment but also for quality of life necessities? Do you really know for sure if you won't just get outright dropped? What happens when your life savings is exhausted and you're bankrupted?

    GoFundMe is not the safety net Americans need. Medicare For All is.

    And lastly, why is it that Cuba has the best doctors in the world? It's true.
     
  35. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    I also want to ask: Why are so many Americans going on medical tourism for anything from basic dental work to major surgeries?
     
  36. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Lastly, Germans not only enjoy access to healthcare with no co-pays, deductibles, premiums, etc, they also get access to free education including University not only for their own citizens but also for foreigners. They have far superior worker benefits and labor protections.

    They implemented a dual education model that is quite remarkable actually. Tuition free vocational training and higher education at University - the people that choose to take up a trade or a vocation generates less demand for college/university. You do one or the other.

    We can learn a lot of from Germany, all of their citzens get the healthcare they need at little or no up front cost. They aren't denied needed treatment, ever. They graduate with 0 debt, have far lower unemployment rates and enjoy a much higher rate of employment with a degree but yes, there are higher income and corporate taxes.
     
  37. Jsn921

    Jsn921 Junior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    352
    Nick, thanks for the friendly back and forth. I am very familiar with Germany. I work for a German based multinational corporation. I’m in Bavaria 2-5x a year. I brought up Germany because it’s the largest Economy in Europe and has a substantial population for a European country. They pay a 13% income tax to fund their “free” healthcare. The scary part to me is their population is soooo much healthier than the US. Also a very homogeneous society. In general my colleagues like it but it’s all they’ve ever known. They’re used to paying high taxes. My impression of Europe/Germany democratic-socialist governments is its great if your poor - lower middle class. If you’re upper middle class - wealthy it’s much better to be in the US.

    I’d like to take our system which is high quality and improve it. That’s all. Bernie is smart he can figure it out. Your example of a family member becoming ill. Same situation can still happen with single payer...you’ve got cancer. Sorry it’s a 6 month wait to see the specialist then a few months to start treatment, oops now it’s progressed to terminal status. Lets just fix it man. I want the best of both systems.

    Medical tourism - I know a lot of people do this for cosmetic procedures. My gut tells me more people come to the US for treatment than Americans leave to get treatments. I live in Memphis and my wife works for St. Jude Children’s cancer hospital. Her patients come from around the world. There isn’t a better Pediatric cancer hospital in the world. The next best ones are all also in the US.

    My kids nanny is Cuban. I can assure you while they might have good doctors they don’t have any medicine to give out. The country is an absolute shit hole thanks to the communist government.
     
  38. jt212713

    jt212713 Senior
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4,746
    Likes Received:
    5,847
    Why do you suppose we break up monopolies?

    eliminating choice has never benefited a consumer. Ever. And it’s never made anything cheaper.
     
  39. Hawker-2001

    Hawker-2001 All-American
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,147
    Likes Received:
    1,534
    Location:
    Kansas...land of milk and honey
    Every for profit corporation has one priority über Alles; it is simply to make as much money as possible.

    Yes, it is...so what? Any company that wants to continue making money in this country needs to be socially responsible and the vast majority do so. Only a socialist thinks thats a bad thing.


    CPD had an oversight board and IA and yet for years it literally was Training Day, they had to disband a drug task force because it was a violent criminal organization.

    Good to know one example means the whole industry is bad. GMAFB.


    You keep mentioning how the government is incompetent.

    In the 1960s without today's technology, some 20 million elderly Americans signed up for Medicare overnight. The way you describe our gov't I'm wondering where all the horror stories are. I'm looking out of my condo right now seeing a beautiful park, city streets, a public school down the road. Once again, 12 men walked on the moon thanks to socialism and a gov't ran agency.

    Oh so we put a man on the moon so the gov't is okay. All the horror stories that you cite as a need to reform healthcare can be put at the feet of the federal gov't. ALL the problems we have in the industry is because the Gov't F'ed it up.

    Any gov't is far from perfect but we have one candidate who wants to entirely expose and remove corruption and reform the entire system.

    Except he doesn't want to reform it...he wants to nationalize it. Not remotely the same thing.
     
  40. nick77

    nick77 All-Conference
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    8,272
    Likes Received:
    805
    Location:
    Chicago
    Bavaria is one of my favorite places in the world. I don't go as frequent as you but when I'm out there I also make the short trek to Heidelberg. Backpacking allover the Alps in the region is one of life's most rewarding experiences. Lake Königssee is a god damned world treasure.

    re: Cuba. You are correct, it is a country of authoritarian rule with a dictator and thanks to the US embargo their people have suffered greatly as well. Same exact thing as Venezuela. Former citizens of both countries that live here do have a much better quality of life no doubt. But the average life expectancy in Cuba matches the UK. The doctor to patient ratio is like 150:1. The doctors aren't rich like here, but the ones that work abroad make quite a bit. And they are the best in the world.

    re: Medical tourism, there is cosmetic but many necessary procedures too, in fact the majority of it is.

    We won't agree on nationalized healthcare but as of right now I can sleep at night only because I know that if something terrible were to happen to my child or wife and when our healthcare would inevitably drops us, well we're rich. If something terrible were to happen to me I wouldn't care too much, I have a multi-million dollar term life insurance policy.

    But for people not like me, and I'm in the minority, the safety net is GoFundMe.
     
    Jsn921 likes this.

Share This Page